Curse

Byron · Mar 31, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

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Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

Flourish would be ok if it was a shout and not 'cast'.

Agreed, but I'm still gonna try it..muhaha.

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No, it really isn't just that. The attack skills available to swords and axes, beyond just eviscerate.. add much more damage and are used more often.

This holds some truth since hammer attacks take longer to build adrenaline with. I still don't see, especially with Ensign's facts posted by Patrograd, that hammers need a buffing. A smart hammer warrior, IMO, is just as deadly as a smart axe warrior.

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Any buffs benefit axes and swords more, and since hammer's attack so much slower.. the spiking is much more limited.

It's true that necromancer hexes affect a hammer warrior's power moreso than and axe or sword wariror, especially faintheartedness.

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Axes and swords have better conditions, more damage, helped more by buffs.. and spike better.

If I had to choose, I would pack KD before deep wound. Therein is the beauty of shock and gale, which allow both on one warrior, which Anet probably didn't anticipate well. Without shock and gale, there would be a lot more hammer warriors around.

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Increasing the speed in which hammers attack would even out the DPS (which hammers should be superior at.. considering their slowers spikes and loss of a shield).

I agree with the no-shield balancing factor, but a raw IAS probably isnt the answer. They need to make a decent, spammable, energy-based hammer IAS skill to justify the shield factor, IMO.
I still see the problem as eviscerate. Even if Eviscerate cost 10 swings of adrenaline, I think it would still be on my bar. One attack shouldn't be able to focus 250 damage in one unconditional hit.

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Originally Posted by Vindexus

In fact, of all the interprofession attribute balancing Warrior is probably the best. Look at Monk, smiting sucks. Look at Ele, fire sucks. Necro, death sucks.

Quoted for truth. Here we are, complaining about hammers when the real problems are out there in different professions.

super dooper · Mar 31, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

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Originally Posted by Seef II

Earth Shaker <e> - 8a, KDs target foes and foes adjacent to your target
I think the skill description on this one is still wrong, it has the same AoE as Hundred Blades. Half the time you can't even chain this guy with Crude Swing (not that you'd want to) and it sees very limited use in HA on altar maps. Does no extra damage and costs an extra point of adrenaline over devastating hammer. No real reason to run this, since the chances of hitting 2+ people are slim. At least it doesn't cost 10a anymore. Oh yeah, 2/3 elite KDs aren't available to Factions-only warriors and no Crushing Blow either. If the hammer's to become popular at all this isn't the way to do it.

figured i'd post this again.. it's bigger than hundred blades. using it in GvG i've gotten countless double (and one time i knocked down like 6 people, lol.) knockdowns. it's great for getting a warrior train off a caster ;P

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/414...akeraoe2xs.jpg

in regards to it (hammers) needing a balance, i think it's balanced aside from a few crappy skills (belly smash, staggering blow, crude swing, but hey, what attribute line doesn't have crappy skills?). i actually prefer a hammer warrior in a single warrior GvG build. knockdowns are just brutal, and the normal hits/crits are nice damage. ;o

thor hammerbane · Mar 31, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

I think the hammer (as a weapon) is pretty balanced, it just needs an improvement on some of the skills. If they fixed the weakness thing on a few skills, i think hammer warriors would be much more efficient and much more used.

Well i can't complain, because of the lack of hammer warriors i get benefits.
1. I get into more groups because of the supply->demand of shutdown/knockdown
2. My weapons cost nothing

But still, there is still some fixing that can be done

Eet GnomeSmasher · Mar 31, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I still don't see, especially with Ensign's facts posted by Patrograd, that hammers need a buffing. A smart hammer warrior, IMO, is just as deadly as a smart axe warrior.

See, that bothers me. Shouldnt a smart hammer warrior be DEADLIER than a smart axe warrior? Afterall, shouldnt hammers be more devastating considering they sacrifice defense for more offense?

Seems jacked up that axes are on par with hammer damage and still retains all the benefits of having a shield. Not to mention added benefits of buffs and mods (zealous and conjure stuff) because of the faster swing rate.

Rey Lentless · Mar 31, 2006, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

See, that bothers me. Shouldnt a smart hammer warrior be DEADLIER than a smart axe warrior? Afterall, shouldnt hammers be more devastating considering they sacrifice defense for more offense?

Seems jacked up that axes are on par with hammer damage and still retains all the benefits of having a shield. Not to mention added benefits of buffs and mods (zealous and conjure stuff) because of the faster swing rate.

Exactly. And axes and swords can pack more damage into a smaller amount of time.. which is usually the most important part of doing damage.

I just foresee knockdowns being less valuable in factions with a cheap spammable ward guarding against them.. and although hammer warriors aren't real prevalent.. knockdown skills are.. so we're going to see this ward regardless. If you lessen knockdown effectiveness, there's no reason at all to use a hammer.. and I don't think that should be how it is.

Simply put. Hammers should do more damage compared to axes and swords than they do right now.

DieInBasra · Mar 31, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Renewing Smash+Dwarven Battle Stance? It'll suck because unless they stand there you'll barly hit them(can't sprint/rush), but at least those skills will be usable.

Myodato · Mar 31, 2006, 09:55 PM // 21:55

If I have a problem with Hammer Warriors, it's the number of skills required to make them effective. An axe warrior will never cry that he needs more than 3 attack skills on his bar, most sword users will be happy with Sever/Gash/Final, yet you won't find many happy hammerers with less than 2 kd skills (1 elite) +irresistable(sometimes mighty) +crushing. One extra skill may not seem a big deal, but in a meta-game that sees most warriors wanting Frenzy + Sprint/Rush + Healing Sig + Res Sig you're left with very little flexibility.

Then simply take into account the inherently tougher energy management thanks to irresistable and crushing, and adding anything else into a hammer build becomes very difficult. Sorry, but I prefer a little more room for creativity, which is probably why r/w hammer became such a welcome alternative.

Greedy Gus · Mar 31, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Frankly, most of the new hammer skills are shit, but so are most of the current ones. The big point is that you don't run a hammer war to look at how many hammer skills you can put on your bar, you run it to use the really nice ones. An irresistable blow spamming hammer war can be a DPS beast, and always has the inherent threat of a devastating KD chain or dropping a backbreaker, and if well timed can be extremely effective. So the hammer war brings a different type of pressure and "presence" to the battle than axes and swords, but I don't see it as inferior.

Seef II · Mar 31, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Ensign's numbers, of course, are taken in a vacuum, which are fine for easy apples-to-apples comparisons, but definitely don't hold water in the game itself when you consider guardian, aegis, faintheartedness, kiting, etc.

Basically I agree with Vindexus, only a few skill changes are really needed to make hammer more attractive. Most of the skills aren't going to be run from any given weapon line - for example, Power Shot is bad, and even something as nice as Galrath Slash is often skipped over due to skillbar constraints.

Factions, on the surface, has lots of emphasis on knockdown. There are ritualist spirits that punish knockdown and interruption, silly ele AoEs that KD, and even a ward against 'em. With the increasing popularity of Bull's Strike and Shock, axe and sword warriors are taking the hammer's place, since they are able to knock down fairly reliably as well. Add to this the "lose all adrenaline" skills and basically hammer looks kind of gimped, but still a viable choice.

The other aspect of all this is PvE, where the best hammers don't even exceed 100k in price. Discounting looks, the unpopularity of hammers in PvE shows that if their skills aren't even runnable or attractive there, they're not going to see that much use in PvP either. Backbreaker is a single-target, one-time shot and you're often up against 5-6 monsters at a time. Earth Shaker + AS is probably the best PvE combo but not truly that great, because of the time it takes to build up adrenaline. There's some conceptual issue here - most likely balance - that has left hammers kind of left out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by super dooper

figured i'd post this again.. it's bigger than hundred blades. using it in GvG i've gotten countless double (and one time i knocked down like 6 people, lol.) knockdowns. it's great for getting a warrior train off a caster ;P
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/414...akeraoe2xs.jpg

Yes, it's larger than hundred blades, but the skill description is still wrong. Hundred Blades is target and all "right next to" your target. Heck, Hundred Blades' description is erroneous as well) while Earth Shaker is your target and all adjacent to your target, as you screen proves.

Consider Triple Chop, the AoE axe elite coming up in Factions. Executioner's Strike damage on all adjacent foes. Sure, no KD, but the +10/34/42 isn't negligible at all. Eviscerate still outclasses it though due to the 112 crit + 100 DW, which is where I think lies the problem.

Byron · Apr 01, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

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Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Shouldnt a smart hammer warrior be DEADLIER than a smart axe warrior? Afterall, shouldnt hammers be more devastating considering they sacrifice defense for more offense? .

I suppose you are right, considering a hammer warrior can't pack a shield or an energy focus. I may have to concede to Rey Lentless here, but not to the full extent. I'll say that hammers could use a buff, but that should come in skills and not in base damage or atttack speed.
That is to say, Dwarven Battle Stance needs to be fixed big time. A low adrenaline hit, the likes of cleave, would also bring a nice ring of damage adjustment. And I'll say again:

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Axe means deep wound, sword means bleeding, and those are what I would expect of a sword or axe hit. But if I were hit by a hammer, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I feel tired now," I'd be thinking, "My insides are smashed." I'd say remove the weakness factor and replace it with either bleeding(that is, internal bleeding) or crippled(hammers break bones).

SaintGreg · Apr 01, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

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The other aspect of all this is PvE, where the best hammers don't even exceed 100k in price. Discounting looks, the unpopularity of hammers in PvE shows that if their skills aren't even runnable or attractive there, they're not going to see that much use in PvP either. Backbreaker is a single-target, one-time shot and you're often up against 5-6 monsters at a time. Earth Shaker + AS is probably the best PvE combo but not truly that great, because of the time it takes to build up adrenaline. There's some conceptual issue here - most likely balance - that has left hammers kind of left out.

PvE hammer has tons going for it...
-cheap prices
-counter blow
-Earth Shaker
-Other good Knockdowns
-weakness - like it or not this is actually not too bad in pve

Not only are you doing as much damage as either sword or axe, you are preventing your team from taking damage. KD also makes it much easier to take down stubborn bosses and other tough guys.

Plus comparing PvE trends to PvP is a bit silly. As you can already see none of the reasons for using hammers in pve make a lick of difference in pvp.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 01, 2006, 07:11 AM // 07:11

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Originally Posted by Byron

I suppose you are right, considering a hammer warrior can't pack a shield or an energy focus. I may have to concede to Rey Lentless here, but not to the full extent. I'll say that hammers could use a buff, but that should come in skills and not in base damage or atttack speed.
That is to say, Dwarven Battle Stance needs to be fixed big time. A low adrenaline hit, the likes of cleave, would also bring a nice ring of damage adjustment. And I'll say again:

Just curious...why would an attack speed adjustment be a bad thing here? I can understand not touching base damage since that would mean screwing up current hammers. Also I think it's probably the easiest "fix" compared to adjusting all the hammer skills to compete with axe and sword damage.

But buffing up hammer skills will work fine too....

Rey Lentless · Apr 01, 2006, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Yah, damage changes wouldn't work, but IAS would be easy.

Balancing the skills just adds variety. You're only going to be using the few best hammer skills available. If you bring the crap skills up to par with those current few 'best' skills, you're just giving hammer builds more options, but aren't really changing the current power. You'd be using those skills instead of what people currently use. Yah, you can just use more hammer skills.. but that comes at a price of slots. So I don't consider that a balance improvement for hammers.. that's just.. skill fixes that provide options and variety, , unless you made them better than the current best. Is that what you guys are suggesting?

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Axe means deep wound, sword means bleeding, and those are what I would expect of a sword or axe hit. But if I were hit by a hammer, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh, I feel tired now," I'd be thinking, "My insides are smashed." I'd say remove the weakness factor and replace it with either bleeding(that is, internal bleeding) or crippled(hammers break bones).

I agree that these are the two options that make sense. Hammers already immobilize with knockdowns, so I don't think they should be able to cripple too. That leaves just bleeding unfortunately. Still crap, but barring a new condition or removing the synergy (or dependency if you're a cup half empty kinda guy) between the hammer skills, this seems to be the best option.

Seef II · Apr 01, 2006, 08:44 AM // 08:44

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Originally Posted by SaintGreg

PvE hammer has tons going for it...
-cheap prices
-counter blow
-Earth Shaker
-Other good Knockdowns
-weakness - like it or not this is actually not too bad in pve

Not only are you doing as much damage as either sword or axe, you are preventing your team from taking damage. KD also makes it much easier to take down stubborn bosses and other tough guys.

Plus comparing PvE trends to PvP is a bit silly. As you can already see none of the reasons for using hammers in pve make a lick of difference in pvp.

Point half-taken. You can run a Shock W/E in PvE, you know, and still have a shield. Bull's Strike is probably replaced with something defensive no matter your weapon, and weakness is still a joke, since your local curses necro can spread it easily with enfeebling blood.

In fact, in PvE you may as well have a gale spammer on the tough bosses and just rest up the exhaustion afterwards. It's just that easy. There's no motivation to use hammer in PvE, since crude swing sucks, Earthshaker/AS is gimmicky and not more overly damaging than meteor shower, and so on. Unless one gets run, the hammer elites aren't even available until faaaaaaaar into the game, and until then, you get to put up with hammer bash/staggering+heavy and counter blow.

stickyballs · Apr 01, 2006, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Leave Hammers to PvP. That simple. KD really isn't needed against AI.

Btw, Te's Im A Paladin's build is:

Bull's Strike
Irresistable Blow
Crushing Blow
Flourish
Rush
Frenzy
Healing Signet
Contemplation of Purity

Pretty much running a full Wammo build, except for CoP. Haven't seen any games where he used a Rez Sig. I'm sure he has, but the last 3 games I saw he didn't.

*I think he switches out Protector's Strike from time to time. Don't see it in every game.

Vermilion Okeanos · Apr 01, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

I am surprise that hammer are so rare in PvE.

I don' think anything can out damage hammer when hammer is max tuned out to kill something. It is so specialized.

I suppose the PvE mentality is "I will survive" that kind of thing. Due to the early days of warriors rushing into things and get the whole party kill then thought "I wish I had some healing". After that, everyone is a wammo, and they carry their healing hand all the way to PvP. @_@

If I do decide to make a warrior, no doubt I going to tune my hammer and stay with it.

Patrograd · Apr 01, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

I just dont understand why people are asking for the most potent DPS force in the game to have its potency further increased. Sure hammer warriors arent the best spike characters, but then again neither are monks, doesnt mean they dont have their places.

if you want to spike with warriors, then use a spike warrior - there are plenty of options. If you want to pressure with warriors, use a pressure warrior. I think asking for a character that can both do awesome pressure AND be able to spike better than anyone else in the game is just way, way overpowered.

Sometimes I have to wonder if people have actually played against a good hammer warrior. I dont think there's a scarier character out there to be honest.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Apr 01, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

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Originally Posted by Patrograd

I just dont understand why people are asking for the most potent DPS force in the game to have its potency further increased. Sure hammer warriors arent the best spike characters, but then again neither are monks, doesnt mean they dont have their places.

if you want to spike with warriors, then use a spike warrior - there are plenty of options. If you want to pressure with warriors, use a pressure warrior. I think asking for a character that can both do awesome pressure AND be able to spike better than anyone else in the game is just way, way overpowered.

Sometimes I have to wonder if people have actually played against a good hammer warrior. I dont think there's a scarier character out there to be honest.

I wonder if you even read this thread.

And comparing a Hammer warrior to a Monk has got to be the dumbest comparisions I've seen.

RotteN · Apr 01, 2006, 11:32 AM // 11:32

i usually play hammer warrior in pvp, and the only thing that makes hammers so good is that they completely disable their target while doin the damage, making them perfect to kill boonprots in a split, but also very nice to at least disable the selfheal of your target.

on non-healing targets, there's the obvious advantage of snaring : when a target is sitting on his ass, he ain't running away, and he's dead afterwards without monk or blocking skills

Patrograd · Apr 01, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

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Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And comparing a Hammer warrior to a Monk has got to be the dumbest comparisions I've seen.

And compaing a hammer warrior to an axe warrior? They are completely different things that do completely different jobs, which is the point I was making and is the point that is totally lost in this thread.

Yes I have read the thread, but I dont understand it. Hammer warriors dont spike as well as axe warriors. So what? Axe warriors dont pressure as well as hammer warriors, should we tweak their skills also so that they can? lets make the game so that we can all run six hammer warriors, two monks and nothing else, becasue if you increase their DPS beyond its already pretty extreme level thats what will happen.